A third way for Argentina: reprofiling

With its debt neither sustainable nor unsustainable, Argentina meets the test for maturity extensions

Carlos Abadi

Argentina's forward player Lionel Messi controlling a ball during a match in the Russia 2018 World Cup
The path to a deal will be fraught with danger; both sides must put their best players forward © AFP/Getty Images


Despite allegations to the contrary, “reprofiling” is not an Argentine euphemism for debt restructuring. It is a distinct liability management exercise that is optimal, from a welfare standpoint, for certain well-defined sovereign debt crises. In our (preliminary) opinion, Argentina’s situation meets the required criteria for a reprofiling that would defer its maturities for a relatively short period, while not reducing either the face value of its obligations to private creditors or their contractual coupons.

In fact, the IMF incorporated reprofiling to its access policy in 2014, in response to criticism it suffered after its alleged procrastination in requiring private sector involvement (PSI) during Greece’s debt crisis. Until then, there existed only a binary choice for any member seeking exceptional access: they either qualified (as a result of the Fund’s debt sustainability analysis (DSA)) as able to repay “with high probability”, or they didn’t. In the former case they were considered for exceptional access of a “catalyst” nature, and only subject to meaningful PSI in the latter.

However, the 2014 rethink brought the Fund to realise that DSA is not an exact science, especially in that it relies on policy commitments from the debtor to be implemented in the future. Consequently, the IMF allowed a third way for exceptional access: the reprofiling. In the Fund’s view, the reprofiling remedy (which is a form of PSI because, unless the exit yield is less than or equal to the contractual coupon, any maturity extension entails an NPV reduction) is appropriate for sovereign debtors lying in the grey area of their debt being neither sustainable nor unsustainable, in each case under the “with high probability” standard.

While we have not yet concluded our DSA (we expect to do so in the next week or so), we expect that it will place Argentina in that grey zone, at least in the Fund’s mind (if nothing else, because policy undertakings would be made by a new, unfamiliar, administration). Additionally, the Fund subjects exceptional access to the window allowing for a reprofiling to two constraints:

1) The member must have already lost market access — clearly fulfilled in Argentina’s case; and

2) There must be considerable uncertainty regarding the member’s debt sustainability (and, accordingly, doubt about whether market access can be regained) — our intuition is that our analysis will reflect this.

Thus, assuming that Argentina qualifies for a reprofiling, the negotiating variable will be the number of deferral years. I would argue that the extension period should be such that no maturity of the reprofiled bonds should fall due before the later of i) Argentina regaining market access, and ii) the IMF having been repaid in full.

Obviously, should Argentina regain market access, there is no reason for the maturity of the reprofiled bonds to occur much later. The maturity extensions need not be identical for each bond as Argentina i) will be in a position to start repaying shortly after the market opens up, subject to the ceiling set by market appetite, and ii) an identical across-the-board extension could be perceived as unfair by holders of short maturities, since their NPV impairment would be proportionally larger than for those holding long maturities.

We attempted to simplify things here because our goal is to show that there is a path to an orderly restructuring in the form of a reprofiling. But that path is narrow and fraught with danger. As we have argued before, both sides will need to play their A-teams to achieve this value-maximising result. This is because, while any reprofiling transaction will trigger credit default swaps and put Argentina in selective default until closing, it is my expectation that if no deal is reached by the first half of 2020, Argentina will enter a moratorium and its cost-benefit analysis may change.

In particular, Argentina will need to:

1) Be persuaded with convincing econometric evidence that the utility (in terms of future growth) of a market-friendly deal consistent with its economic fundamentals outweighs the sugar high of a strategic default resulting in a reduction in principal and/or interest, and short-term relief from current expenditures;

2) Understand that the NPV reduction resulting from the reprofiling can be communicated internally as a victory, under almost any scenario;

3) Internalise that the economic benefits derived from formulating and implementing a credible path to meaningful primary surpluses will translate into political gains before the end of the next presidential term. Once more, the Argentine side will not take dogmatic generalities about the virtues of fiscal discipline and market reputation at face value; to get the point across, the alternative macro paths will need to be modelled with a robustness nearing the dispositive (an exercise we will start working on immediately following the DSA’s completion); and

4) Realise that a reprofiling deal provides Argentina with the best of both worlds: optionality. Should the government, whether because of externalities, social pressures or mere vagaries, decide that it is not in a position to fulfil its fiscal undertakings, the option to default will remain.

Creditors, on the other hand, will have to struggle with the following internal and external challenges to ensure a satisfactory resolution:

1) Maintaining the cohesion of the creditor group so that precious time is not lost in internal bickering or the formation of competing representative bodies, creating delay and confusion.
Several divisive issues will have to be addressed, including the issue of equity between holders of short and long maturities mentioned above;

2) Negotiating with a party that holds an ace in its sleeve: the ability to strategically default. It is axiomatic that, however costly default may be for a sovereign issuer, it will never be as costly as the same conduct for a domestic corporate debtor. Argentina’s creditors will have to be professional in substantiating with compelling models and data the utility to Argentina (and related agency benefits) of a reprofiling deal consistent with the timing of Argentina’s expected return to market access;

3) Using collective action clauses (CACs) as both a sword and a shield. Creditors will need to:

a. Strive to represent or speak for blocking minorities of substantially all sizeable outstanding issues subject to reprofiling; and

b. Be mindful of the implications (both internal and external) and the effect on potential deal-killing holdouts of the strategic differences between the post-2005 dual-limb vote CACs and the significantly more debtor-friendly more recent single-limb vote issues. To continue with the same example, creditors should be aware that single-limb issues are relatively new, that their “uniformly applicable” condition has not been tested in the courts, and that a uniform extension that causes some bondholders to suffer a greater relative NPV impairment than others may be challenged in court and that such litigation may frustrate the desired resolution;

4) Information asymmetry is another advantage a debtor holds over its creditors, amplified in the case of a sovereign issuer such as Argentina with financial data that are opaque for some periods and outright unreliable for others. Creditors will have to derive or gather reliable data (such as the true quantum of the debt owed to other public sector entities) from private sources in order to rebut potentially abusive demands for further NPV concessions (we are also in the process of plugging those fuzzy data holes).

Finally, no reprofiling (or even restructuring) can happen without an IMF agreement. Much has happened at the IMF in the past five years, including its change of leadership and the 2014-2015 revised exceptional access framework on which a reprofiling deal hinges. But it still has a rigorous credit process, which relies on getting as collateral a credible fiscal programme and trusting that the sovereign’s policy commitments can be implemented.

Given Argentina’s economic and social condition and even though the incoming administration is an unknown, the IMF will probably have to accept that Argentina will be unable to deliver more than a primary balance for the next 12 to 18 months and that such relative fiscal laxity is a necessary condition for the subsequent delivery of sustained primary surpluses.

Argentina’s burden of proof is not as exacting as it could be if it were seeking exceptional access of the catalyst variety. The kind of support Argentina should aim for does not require proof that its debt is sustainable.

Indeed, exceptional access for a standby facility supportive of a reprofiling requires only rejecting the null hypothesis that Argentina’s debt is unsustainable under the “with high probability” standard. To borrow an analogy from law, Argentina’s strategy (with the creditors acting at its amici) should be to introduce reasonable doubt to a hypothetical IMF finding of unsustainability “with high probability”; in other words, to avoid a Type I error.

My opinion has not changed: an orderly debt restructuring is possible, even likely, but if, and only if, both Argentina and its creditors put their respective Messis on the field.



Carlos Abadi is managing director of DecisionBoundaries, LLC, a New York-based international financial advisory firm.


On Viewing Rembrandt’s ‘Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer’

By:George Friedman

 

 

Last weekend I was in New York City, with a rare moment for indulgence.

I chose to visit an old love, one who taught me about my life and what it would cost me.

That love was a painting by Rembrandt, the centerpiece of an exhibition of Dutch masters at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

It is called by several names, but for me, its name will always be “Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer.”

It is a painting about philosophy, politics and beauty, and the longing for what no one can have: all three.




Aristotle is at the center, dominating the painting.

He is dressed lavishly in cloth of extraordinary luxury, with an ambiguous hat, barely visible, atop his head.

But the true center of the painting is a magnificent gold chain that encircles his body.

It is sensuous in its beauty, but the beauty can’t hide its strength.

What it surrounds it controls, and it surrounds Aristotle.


The reason he is wearing the chain is at first a mystery; he is, after all, a philosopher, a scholar who studied under Plato.

Such men neither have the means nor the appetite for such ornaments.

Then, if you look very carefully at the painting, you see a small medallion attached to the chain, and on the medallion is an image of Alexander the Great, the man who conquered the known world to the foot of the Himalayas and planted himself in eternity, with cities named after him scattered through his empires.

He used these cities as the foundation of his empire, linking them together in trade and weapons.

And in his short life, the Greek from the foothills of the Balkans reshaped the world.

The mystery begins to resolve itself with that medallion, for Aristotle was Alexander’s teacher and teachers bear at least some or sometimes all of what their students become.

Aristotle clearly was proud of his student; otherwise, why would he be clothed in silks and gold and bear the picture of his student so near to his heart?

His bearing is proud in the painting; a man who taught Alexander how to be great must be great as well.

Aristotle’s teaching was not of the art of war but rather of philosophy.

Philosophy teaches about the moral obligations that men bear.

It teaches them about justice, and it teaches them when justice requires kindness and when it requires cruelty.

Philosophy teaches about the city, the polis – or our modern-day nations – and teaches how they are constructed, how they should be ruled, and how they should avoid defeat and slavery.

In the end, philosophy teaches about a place, justice and injustice, and teaches the warrior who must choose the place, and choose what is just.

To me, Aristotle bears himself as a well-decorated soldier.

His hand on his hip, his posture straight, he appears to us as Alexander might, a warrior who has risked much, from his life to his soul, and has emerged with both intact.

When Napoleon visited the great German writer Goethe, Bonaparte is said to have exclaimed, “You are a man.”

He expected to meet another feeble scholar, one who I suppose infested the Bourbon court, uttering platitudes.

That a great writer, and truly a philosopher as well, should turn out to be both a thinker and a man in full astounded Napoleon, perhaps the greatest warrior since Alexander, does not surprise me.

There is a connection in my mind between the scholar and weakness, a willingness to imagine justice but not to fight and die for it.

But Rembrandt understood Aristotle, the philosopher.

The chain is the chain of office.

It is the chain an important adviser to a ruler might wear.

And in the end, philosophy becomes an adviser to the ruler.

A man who devotes himself to questions of justice and war and to truly understanding their necessity and the paradox that exists in them, is inevitably advising the ruler, whether the ruler understands it or not.

He shapes the time in which he lives, waging a war against the superficial and self-serving, and usually losing.

Aristotle had won.

He had honed an instrument of justice and war unlike many the world has seen, and Alexander understood – according to Rembrandt, at least – that he had been honed.

You can see the pride with which he wears the gold chain. But you can also see sadness.

To Aristotle’s right, clouded in the darkness Rembrandt had mastered, is the bust of Homer, the blind poet of the heroic age of Greece, without malice on the part of anyone, shunted off into the murk.

Aristotle’s hand rests on Homer’s head, gently and almost tenderly. His eyes do not face straight ahead like a soldier’s, or suspiciously in all directions as a politician’s would.

Aristotle’s hand rests on the bust like a lover’s, but the eyes aren’t focused. They see Homer, but they see something else, something that is not there but that rivets Aristotle’s attention.

He has one hand on his chain, another on Homer, and his eyes contain a deep sadness.

Forget that the chain is gold, forget that it is a reward for his greatness.

It is still a chain that binds him to Alexander, a bond forged because he was a philosopher who taught a conqueror how to conquer.

That is a triumph – the highest triumph philosophy can achieve – but is it enough to satisfy the soul of philosophy?

Homer was a poet, and poets hear and sing songs.

He knew that hearing the songs of the sirens was worth dying for.

He wrote of the battle for Troy as if dying were a small price to pay for having been there.

The poet’s song is the song of beauty and despair and makes no attempt to justify either.

This makes poetry the enemy of philosophy.

Philosophy must explain everything.

Its need, its compulsion, is to leave nothing as the philosopher found it but to examine it, twisting and turning it until he owns its soul.

Poetry celebrates the simple reality of being.

It does not weigh the good and the evil but gives thanks to the gods that both are there.

The philosopher is proud of what he knows and is proud of the mark he left on history.

The poet is a sensualist.

He wants to teach feeling by revealing it in language turned to song.

With this, the poet teaches what true joy and true sorrow feel like.

The philosopher lives by rigor, suppressing feelings in the name of truth and necessity.

The poet lives sensually, in the mind, soul and body, and contents himself with celebrating what is, whether victory or defeat.

In a way, the poet is an anarchist, subject to his tropes only when he chooses, in love with what he sees and with whoever listens.

The lover may be twisted and depraved, but that simply makes his lover worthier of the song.

Aristotle is caught between the power of the state, the rigor of philosophy and the voluptuousness of the poet.

Aristotle chose to be the adversary of the poet, and he achieved everything any reasonable man could dream of.

But the price he paid for both was the rigorous management of all his feelings, a constant analysis of why the world is as it is and why rulers rule as they do.

Homer never cared about either.

He accepted the world as it was, and he wanted to capture treachery, bravery, banality and the enchanted.

He never explained why the siren’s song was so seductive.

He was simply content to speak of women who generate urges that would cause men to knowingly go to their death.

Aristotle would have dissected it.

Homer might well have died simply to die hearing that song.

The tension is between experiencing life, understanding life and dominating life.

Aristotle ultimately chose the last two.

Homer chose the first.

Rembrandt portrays Aristotle, perhaps at the moment he realized what he won and what he lost, longing for the life of the poet.

There is a sense given to all of us who are human, when the tension between being somewhere and cherishing it for what it is, competes with the mind wandering off to other things.

Homer was the siren, asking us to stop thinking and give ourselves over to his song.

And Aristotle was the philosopher and adviser to the great who realized he had never done that, and that it was now too late to do more than imagine that purity.

Rembrandt had to have understood this agony, or he couldn’t have painted the picture.

Philosophy, statecraft and poetry are far from the only moments, but they are at the extreme.

The painting is a monument to our lives, of the price we pay for Eden, where we learned of good and evil, and from which Cain could learn to kill Abel.

It would seem to be the tragedy of the human condition, that the search for justice and power destroys the pleasure of being human.

I myself have rarely found escape from the conundrum, but I have found a path.

She who lives hidden in plain sight.
 

China Needs Economic Stimulus

China’s GDP growth has been slowing steadily since the first quarter of 2010, and the prospect of slower growth has gained widespread acceptance, both within and outside China. But the downward trend is riskier than many observers seem to realize.

Yu Yongding

yu51_VCGVCG via Getty Images_chinastockmarket


BEIJING – China’s GDP growth may still be strong by global standards, but the annualized rate of 6% in the third quarter of 2019 is the lowest the country has recorded since 1992. In fact, China’s GDP growth has been slowing steadily since the first quarter of 2010, when it exceeded 12%, year on year.

This downward trend is riskier than many observers seem to realice.

In recent years, the prospect of slower Chinese growth has gained widespread acceptance, both within and outside China. A shrinking working-age population means that 8% growth is no longer essential for full employment, it is argued, so introducing more fiscal or monetary stimulus isn’t worth the risk.

Instead, China’s policymakers should focus on improving the quality of growth through supply-side structural reforms – an objective that, most economists in China argue, may in fact be easier to achieve in a lower-growth environment.

This approach is misguided. While structural adjustment is crucial, slower economic growth is not a prerequisite for success; on the contrary, it would impede reform. Moreover, given that the complexity of China’s labor market impedes data collection, it is likely that China’s employment situation is not as strong as many believe.

In this context, the Chinese government’s top priority should be to arrest the decline in GDP growth – not least to prevent a kind of snowball effect that will make restoring growth far more difficult later. After nearly a decade of continuous deceleration, with no end in sight, investors and consumers are becoming increasingly reluctant to spend.

Serious financial vulnerabilities will only deepen their concerns; ceteris paribus, declining growth will worsen all indicators of financial stability.

Fortunately, China has the policy space to pursue stimulus. To be sure, as a share of GDP, China’s broad money supply (M2) is among the world’s highest. The country’s fiscal position may not be as strong as official figures suggest, and its corporate debt-to-GDP ratio is also among the highest in the world.

But a closer look suggests that the associated risks are overblown.

The primary risk associated with monetary expansion is, of course, inflation. But Milton Friedman’s assertion in 1956 that “inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon” has been thoroughly debunked in recent years. Countries with high M2-to-GDP ratios have often maintained low inflation, and countries with low M2-to-GDP ratios have sometimes struggled with high inflation.

China is no exception. Although M2 has grown faster than nominal GDP consistently over the last decade, China’s core consumer price index has hovered around 2%, and its producer price index has often fallen into negative territory. This can be explained partly by Chinese households’ financial habits: they save a lot, boosting M2, but mostly in savings accounts, which aren’t inflationary. For China, deflation is now a more serious concern than inflation.

On the fiscal front, the figures are doubly deceiving. Officially, China has had an average deficit-to-GDP ratio of less than 2% over the last decade, and a government debt-to-GDP ratio of about 40%. Yet, in the first ten months of this year alone, local governments have issued CN¥2.53 trillion ($359 billion) in special-purpose bonds, intended to support public-interest projects.

Such bonds are not recorded as deficit financing, because it is assumed that the projects they fund will generate enough income to cover all debt obligations. If they were, China’s deficit and debt ratios would rise significantly.

Yet, even if these indicators were recalculated to account for all of the government’s contingent liabilities, China’s fiscal position would remain significantly stronger than those of most developed economies. More important, China’s government boasts net assets worth some $17 trillion in 2016, according to the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences – a powerful buffer against fiscal shocks.

The bigger risks arise from China’s corporate debt, which surpassed 160% of GDP in 2017. But even here, there is little reason to panic, because China’s corporate debts – largely the result of underdeveloped share markets – are financed mostly by domestic savings. (Despite having increased in recent years, China’s foreign debt remains relatively low.)

Moreover, the growth of China’s corporate debt-to-GDP ratio has slowed in recent years. The best way to bolster this trend is not to refuse to roll over corporate debts – potentially causing liquidity shortages that drive companies needlessly into bankruptcy – but rather to give firms the chance to grow out of debt. That requires a faster-growing economy.

China has the policy space to implement a powerful economic stimulus package. While the side effects and limits of such a package should be fully recognized, the risks of a continued slowdown – not only for China, but also for a global economy primed for recession – dictate that the government should use it.


Yu Yongding, a former president of the China Society of World Economics and director of the Institute of World Economics and Politics at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, served on the Monetary Policy Committee of the People’s Bank of China from 2004 to 2006.


Geopolitical Determinism

By: George Friedman


Having written a great deal on space and enchantment, it is time to come down to earth. I want to return to the central thesis of geopolitics as I practice it: the idea of geopolitical determinism.

I differ from other people who write on geopolitics in two senses. While I regard geography as a fundamental determinant in human behavior, I don’t regard it as being the sole determinant.

For me, Greek philosophy is pivotal in defining what it means to be human. I am not sure that Plato or Aristotle could have written in any place but Greece, or at any time other than they did. But regardless of that question, we are all, in the global civilization that has emerged, shaped to some extent by them as by the highest moments of all civilization. But this could not have come about without the European imposition of a global system on the world, so we are back to geopolitics.

My point here is that geopolitics is far more complex and subtle than simply the physical reality of the globe, but also that the subtlety of the world constantly circles back to that physical reality.

More controversial is that I’m a determinist. I do not believe that we are shaped merely by mountains and deserts, but it is evident to me that each of us is shaped by both place and the forces emanating from place. In the simplest example, the life of an Indian born in the slums of Mumbai is profoundly different from the life of an American born in a wealthy Dallas suburb like Highland Park. Both are constrained.

The Indian is not likely to become a partner at a private equity fund. The Highland Parker is not likely to become a petty thief. The former must resort to his or other related modes of living, and everything he knows, including the culture of his slum, leads him there. Similarly, the Highland Parker is going to live a very different life. (Of course, since thievery is part of the human condition, he may become a thief – but at a far more exalted level.)

The existence of Mumbai’s slums is shaped by the land, the climate, the surplus of people and the minimal existence of resources. All of this places constraints on the life of someone born there. The existence of Highland Park is shaped by the vastness and relative underpopulation of Texas, the generous flow of oil, and the investments made in Texas infrastructure and higher education as a result of that oil.

Put those conditions and wealth in Mumbai rather than Texas, and while the two people might not change places, they would each likely have different lives. The very wealthy like to say that you are what you make yourself. Even that isn’t true, since you are surrounded not only by wealth but cultural expectations that grow from it.

An individual might escape his fate, but the statistical likelihood of divergence is limited. The sheaf of practical policies might expand or contract, but life is lived within that sheaf.

The place in which you are born makes it possible to escape. As I write this, I am in Dubai and am surrounded by an Indian underclass made up of people who clean hotel rooms and drive visitors to and from the airport. If anyone from Highland Park is here, then he is likely the recipient of these Indians’ services, as I am.

I don’t know where they come from, but if it’s not from the slums, then it’s likely near them.

The point is that even when you change your place in the world, you change it within the constraints of who you are.

Andre Malraux, the French writer (and forgive me if I repeat myself, but I value this very much), said that men leave their countries in very national ways. The American expatriate who has learned perfect Bulgarian is still an American expatriate living in Bulgaria. You can recognize an American student on their junior year abroad, with Columbia University emblazoned on their souls.

I was born in Hungary, and when I go back to Hungary, I shock my wife with how quickly I become Hungarian even though I left as an infant. Hungarians, on the other hand, know by whatever sense that I am American, and therefore that I should be sold a fake diamond.

The degree to which our lives and our souls are shaped by where we were born and where we live is astonishing. I lived in a neighborhood in the Bronx and went on to get a doctorate. The Puerto Ricans with whom I lived and fought for the most part had no conception of the value of a doctorate and no desire to have one. I lacked their understanding of the street but they had other needs, which I couldn’t fathom.

It’s not obvious which was more important. But my parents were shaped by the first half of the 20th century, by World War II and by the Holocaust. The Puerto Ricans were shaped by their families’ backgrounds, often impoverished, on a tropical island. Their imaginations and appetites were different from the moment of birth, and so I went one way and they another, and I could imagine no other path – with important exceptions on all sides. But we were both fleeing lives that we couldn’t bear, and fled them in very different ways.

The idea that place does not create constraints and imperatives that few can overcome is, I think, naive. This is the foundation of determinism, and we have no trouble imagining this in the markets. In economics, the assumption is that you predict the appetite for or revulsion of good or bad stocks.

I get endless emails from advisers who promise to make me wealthy (side note – if someone can amass vast wealth, why is he hustling me for few bucks?). The assumption is that markets have a degree of predictability. This is true even of market disruption. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos understood what the internet would do, and he aligned himself with what was inevitable.

Our lives are filled with forecasts. When you step off the sidewalk with a “walk” light, you are forecasting that the car approaching will stop. When you choose your profession, you are forecasting that it will serve your needs. When you marry your spouse, you do so based on expectations of happiness. That these may not occur does not change the fact that forecasting is inextricably bound up with human existence.

The argument I am making is twofold. First, that it is impossible to avoid forecasting but that the greater the risk and reward, the more your forecast must be refined. Second, since the behavior of nation-states can give you the greatest reward or risk, forecasting the behavior of nations is indispensable, and refining the forecast into a reliable guide is indispensable.

It seems impossible. But for the most part, the oncoming car stops at the light. Your reading of the situation is correct. In the same way, I will argue that forecasting how nations will behave is possible, if you begin with an understanding of how the forces of that nation define how individuals will behave.

Geographic determinism can be a form of superficial vulgarity. But if it is part of a general understanding of the manner in which humans see the world and their own souls, then predicting the movement of 330 million people becomes possible. In predicting what the United States will do, you must begin with the fact that Americans are human, that they differ from other humans based on where they are, and that like all humans, they experience imperatives and constraints the same way. Doing this allows you to predict the direction a nation will take both internally and toward other nations.

This is the foundation of Geopolitical Futures and what I am doing. It is imperfect, but all things are. It is not simplistic modeling based on geography. It is an attempt to consider how the geography of Greece forged the Greeks, how the Greeks created an extraordinary moment in human thought, and how they gave way to Rome.

You can predict, on the whole and with exceptions, the trajectory of someone’s life by where he was born and to whom he was born. You can describe what he will believe, who he will love, and who he will hate. And taking them together, you can see them crack under pressure, or stand astride their enemies. It may not be perfect, but life is far from random.

I will go from Dubai to Calgary to New York and Istanbul. I am sure there is a common thread that makes this necessary, and traces back to the Magyar tribes east of the Carpathians. I will find it.